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Saturday, February 23

Thursday, July 16

  1. msg Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation message posted Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation Dear Raynaldo, You might be interested in the discussion within the SDD international school conc…
    Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation
    Dear Raynaldo,
    You might be interested in the discussion within the SDD international school concerning the lack of trust as an obstacle to consensus making at http://sddinternationalschool.wikispaces.com/message/view/Round+1/13070547?o=0.
    1:18 pm

Thursday, June 4

  1. msg Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation message posted Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation Dear Raynaldo, My suggestion of action research in combination with SDD is not focused just on pas…
    Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation
    Dear Raynaldo,
    My suggestion of action research in combination with SDD is not focused just on past experiences. From the examples I gave for the attempts to resolve the problem you formulated as a "deep social change opposing the pursuit of profit by capitalism as its main task", only Paris commune lasted for a short time but it was the first to articulate the strategy to resolve the problem. It took the 1999 depleted uranium bombing to eliminate last remains of self-management in Serbia, while the instances of occupation of factories in Argentina still exist and all people interested in deep social change can learn much through the attempt to address the problem in the similar way.

    Your experiment with analysing inhibitors that received zero votes came up with building of trust as the way to tackle the problem, much like the December root cause map with building facilitation capacity. From my part of the world I can hardly see how can I build trust in financial and corporate oligarchy that had sent the bombers to speed up the devastating process of privatization in order to increase its profits.
    As you said yourself, capitalism reproduces social unsustainability and it therefore prevents “common ethos” of everybody in society.

    Concerning the division of labor, it is important to distinguish class and technical division of labor – I meant the first one, and you the second. Paris commune offered good hints how to overcome class division of labor – imperative mandate of delegates having average salaries during the term in office, specialists concretize the ways to implement strategic decisions reached on the basis one man one vote. Such strategic decision include "pertaining to a community with own traditions and sharing of values, in a way that any member of that community can assimilate his or her membership as a continuous spiritual nurture".
    7:21 am

Tuesday, May 26

  1. msg Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation message posted Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation Dear Vera: I found your proposal very interesting, and it should become one of the fundamental b…
    Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation
    Dear Vera:

    I found your proposal very interesting, and it should become one of the fundamental bones of a whole structural social change, and of people worldvision. Being honest I think it needs to be developed backwards, like you with the action research focused on past experiences suggest, but also forwards to try to complement it.

    Let me first state some questions and considerations:

    1. Formally, around the role of SDD.

    1.1 I have always seen SDD as a tool for developing a good diagnosis of extending in time complex situations. When you try to use it for some ephemeral situations like the social movements of the Paris commune or the Argentinian factory occupations, you need to undertake a triple task: first scrutinize the results obtained in a very restricted time frame of a not yet extended phenomenon to the whole social structure, which gives you a very limited view of reality or perhaps just a glance of a yet not self corrected alternative, second open your mind to a number of alternatives that might be experienced if those social movements had been socially accepted and continued during a prolonged time frame, and third, propose completely new alternatives based on the realization of why those social movements did not find a globalized acceptation.

    1.2 I think SDD can probably tackle the first job if you have the opportunity to achieve participation of people who directly lived those social movements. However, I believe that SDD in its actual state of evolution can not tackle the second job, because it needs a "common ethos", that is, "trust that other participants share with you the need of a complete social change in the specific terms you are considering". I think that SDD could produce "likely scenarios after the installation of the proposed new alternatives, which of course had to be tested in a very comprehensive way and would also require a "basical trust around the main aims and paths to be followed before any new installation".

    Am I hitting something important here?

    2. Around the main content of how an organization might fill the needs of people.

    2.1 Though the division of labor is a very fundamental trait in our economic model of society, it is not only based in the possession of command and the response of execution, but also in the very wide diversity of knowledge and skills we people have or not have. A hierarchy of activities is immediately imposed to everybody depending on their nature and pervasiveness. These characteristics immediately attract a diferent value conceptualization (also in monetary terms) of the activities, and naturally produce a hierarchy of positions in the execution of common tasks. Could you state how this problematique could be overcome?

    2.2 Apart from the recognition of people contributions to a complex task, there are many more needs people would like to become satisfied in order to appreciate the proposed social change as really valuable for them. Just to name one of them, there is a terrible need for being accepted as "pertaining to a community with own traditions and sharing of values, in a way that any member of that community can assimilate his or her membership as a continuous spiritual nurture". This membership is not necessarily related to a particular job or depending on a division of labor. It has to do with non-economical rewards. It is outside the economical model of society. I believe that you are aware of those kinds of people needs which require a very different path of activities for their satisfaction. How are we going to take them into account in the new design?

    The last are some concerns (yet not all my concerns) I have to correctly address the problem of a radical change in society.

    Finally, how could we tackle all these worries in an ordered fashion that gives place to a mutual commitment against a factual ongoing mechanism as capitalism?

    With love,

    Reynaldo
    8:02 am

Monday, May 25

  1. msg Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation message posted Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation In shortest my answer to your question dear Reynaldo, concerning my proposals to tackle the problem…
    Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation
    In shortest my answer to your question dear Reynaldo, concerning my proposals to tackle the problem of a "deep social change opposing the pursuit of profit by capitalism as its main task", is to learn through action research in combination with SDD on the failures of the previous historical attempts from the Paris commune to the Yugoslav self-management and Argentinian factory occupations to overcome class division of labor on those who commend and those who just execute as the social basis of all kinds of ownership and power oligopolies.
    12:20 pm

Thursday, May 14

  1. msg Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation message posted Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation Dear Vera, Ken, Heiner, Paul and everyone in this team: I appreciate very much every one of your…
    Thanks for reacting at my odd invitation
    Dear Vera, Ken, Heiner, Paul and everyone in this team:

    I appreciate very much every one of your comments, in and outside of this wikispace. I certainly need to practice patience much more than I usually do. We, Mexicans, like some Greeks I know, have hot blood in our veins...

    I was talking to my wife, Magdalena, regarding the evolution of socialism. She studied very deeply the cultural revolution in China at the Colegio de México, and some of her teachers then (1970-1975), though being sympathetic to the political left chinese wing (Mao's thought), pointed out that socialism in Rusia ended reproducing the same contradictory results as capitalism in Europe and America: concentration of capital in very few hands, profound gap between rich and poor people, inequity in the provision of opportunities, scarce or almost none social mobility, depredation of environment, among some of the main phenomena.

    The radical shift I was implying must go through our change in worldvision, like it is sustained in Chris Clugston's paper sent by Heiner: "On American Sustainability (Anatomy of a Societal Collapse)". Chris is Aleco's fellow townsman if I am not wrong, and he develops his thesis basing it on the overextention of population, the scarcity and finity of renewable and non-renewable resources including also economic resources. His conclusion is that we are "living unsustainably beyond our means". He addresses the problem of our ambition to always possess higher standards of living, coming back over the idea of exponential growth and its consequences like the Meadows had already visualized long time ago.

    I, on my part, have always intuited, that besides the problems of physical environmental and economic unsustainability, there appears the problem of "social unsustainability". Aleco is a witness of my standpoint, when I collaborated with him and Kevin in a workshop for the Northwestern Electric Energy Alliance(NEEA), held in Skamania at Washington State. At the end of the workshop, the participants decided that the idea of "incrementing energy savings by American consumers" or "reducing the international gap of electrical energy consumption" should be erased from the structural map obtained, because it "surprisingly" appeared as a "driving force for the whole structure"... In a globalized world, "inequity" and its general effect: "migration from poorer to richer countries" are beginning to be the motivation for social instability, no matter the existence of Nation-State frontiers. And social instability is the warning sign of social unsustainability.

    At the end of the last millenium I was hoping that no more wars emerged in the world. But first terrorism in USA and then wars in Afghanistan and later in Iraq arised as a manifestation of many problems but also of social instability. I would not like to be classified as "fatalist". However, the contradictions of capitalism as the general economic model for the world are producing worrisome effects like the last financial crisis. We need to design alternatives.

    Correctly addressing Inhibitor 22: Corporate Control of the Means of Democracy might be the focus and the strategy as Ken suggests. Could the "building of social trust" diminish the power of Corporations, or at least produce a balancing power?

    Paul, I agree with you about inventing stories. There may be many different interpretations. Regarding "conceptual content", mine is only a suggestion. Perhaps it went unexpectedly too far. Regarding transcending the actual SDDP methodology, I would like my experiment and proposals to be understood as the motivation for further studies and amelioration. Regarding the technological issue, for scalation and practical use to pursue with ICT the goal of bottom-up democracy, I would ask for the help of experts like you and others in the team.

    Vera, I would like to know of your proposals to tackle the problem of a "deep social change opposing the pursuit of profit by capitalism as its main task".

    Thanks to all of you,

    Reynaldo
    10:22 am
  2. msg Beginning my interpretive story... message posted Beginning my interpretive story... Dear Reynaldo, Thank you for the effort you have put into the story you have seen in the list of…
    Beginning my interpretive story...
    Dear Reynaldo,

    Thank you for the effort you have put into the story you have seen in the list of inhibitors from our recent experiment. Reading your posts, I can see that you have taken this discussion very much to heart and have spent much thought on the interactions of this sytem. It has made for a very interesting read and has given me insights into how other members have insight into the inhibitors.

    The primary idea I get from your efforts is the wonderful ways that these concepts can be woven into a stoy. There may be other stories in this set of concepts, but yours was especially well thought out. I agree with your conclusions that a radical shift is needed, but I was a radical in 1964 when I started working with the farm workers in California, so I may have a predisposition to a radical oint of view.

    Let me make two comments about this discussion which may explain some of the lack of interaction here. First, I understood this process a an effort at refining the web-based dialog technology. My participation was on two levels: the conceptual discussion of the grass-roots efforts by the Obama adminstration and a procedural experiment on the effectiveness of conducting such a discussion at a distance in space and time. You efforts here have been to further the conceptual discussion and they are admirable. No one, myself included, has really opened a discussion fo the technological aspects of the process. I hope the KMT has done that off-line.

    Second, I think that many of us are busy working for these changes in our daily lives. I know that I am busy with my students, trying to give them the tools and support to shift Japan into a new world view. THis limits the time I have to come back to any one website and check on progress and updates. I regularly try to monitor about two or three dozen websites, as well as my daily reading of several on-line newspapers. It takes time and if the Obama vision site slips through the cracks, please forgive me. I have some of these conversations on "monitor" so I can recieve e-mail when new comments are posted, but new discussions are not monitored in the same way. Perhaps this is a flaw in the wikispaces software.

    That being said, the fact that visits are up but no comments are made should encourage you, not discourage you. It would seem that the site is being serached by visitors who are interested in what happened and the discussions that are continuing, but who are unable to comment as they are not members of the wiki. Maybe we should open the wiki to guests and allow the conversation to open up, now that the experiment itself is finished.

    So do not dispare, my friend I have not yet met. No effort is wasted and we do appreciate your insights.
    5:11 am

Monday, May 11

  1. msg Beginning my interpretive story... message posted Beginning my interpretive story... Dear Raynaldo, Similar silence resulted when I attempted to lay down the wiki infrastructure for …
    Beginning my interpretive story...
    Dear Raynaldo,
    Similar silence resulted when I attempted to lay down the wiki infrastructure for continuation of a heated email discussion of members of International Sociological Association Research Comity 10 on Participation, Organisational Democracy and Self-Management, precisely the possible additional site for "people interested in the radical political and social phenomena that we are experiencing through globalization". We should not be offended however, dear Raynaldo, since dialogue can not be forced on anybody.
    I must say that it was again Ken who recently broke prolonged silence by opening a new thread "Realism - constructionism" in the discussion part of the Participation Research Network page at http://rc10internetforum.wikispaces.com/message/view/Participation/11972559. I have the impression that in this thread Ken is advocating "realism" ("large audience that is convinced that capitalism is the only viable economic alternative") and in the RC10 Internet forum, on the contrary, constructivism ("My reading of the evidence is that we construct our realities socially and individually").
    Dear Ken, would you not say that in situations like the present systemic crisis of the capitalist production for profit instead for satisfaction of human needs, large audiences precisely change their convictions and at the least through their very experience learn that production for profit is endangering their very biological survival? Don't they intensify in such situations bottom up search for innovative solutions to problems encountered in previous attempts at organisation of production for satisfaction of needs, instead of dropping the socialist agenda all together?
    12:53 pm
  2. msg Beginning my interpretive story... message posted Beginning my interpretive story... Dear Ken: Thank you so much for your recent response!!! I like your strategy. I would not be…
    Beginning my interpretive story...
    Dear Ken:

    Thank you so much for your recent response!!!

    I like your strategy. I would not be problematized by explicitly addressing Inhibitor 22 without a mention to "socialism". I would be problematized if the outcomes expected would not be "equity", "respect of fundamental differences","sustainable planet", "world with widespreaded aesthetic values", "continuous participation in decisions processes implying public policies which affect all of us", "mutual trust", just to mention some of the values I would be very interested to sense becoming a reality... Money holding should be a value far down in the list from the above...

    I agree with you that it needs to take into account common people and their wisdom, it must be built bottom-up, and SDDP can help if we take it seriously, and transcend some of its actual limitations.

    Thanks again,

    Reynaldo
    11:52 am
  3. msg Beginning my interpretive story... message posted Beginning my interpretive story... As I read you, your proposed main action item addresses Inhibitor 22 and consists of replacing capi…
    Beginning my interpretive story...
    As I read you, your proposed main action item addresses Inhibitor 22 and consists of replacing capitalism with a re-conceptualized socialism that would come to pass through clear and compassionate reasoning.

    I do not disdain that vision, but I do not see it as viable because it seems to be a mainly top-down solution. Your discussion of how trust would address the bulk of the inhibitors may be a first step for defining the ideal socialism that could lie at the basis of a future SDD session on the obstacles to achieving such socialism. I wonder how such a session would differ from one that dealt with overcoming Inhibitor 22, Corporate control of the means of democracy.

    The main benefit of the first (socialist) alternative, with its emphasis on mutual trust, would seem to be working toward a richly defined outcome. The main benefit of the second is that it would not be off-putting to a very large audience that is convinced that capitalism is the only viable economic alternative. Both alternatives would be working in the same direction.

    There are growing realizations that bottom-up wisdom is essential for good economic and political government. I believe we should build on that growing foundation without espousing a "socialist" agenda.

    Ken
    10:38 am

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